Episode 541:47October 29, 2026

Kelly Cowan on why the best trade for a contractor is a law degree

Kelly Cowan runs Kelly Cowan Designs, a design-build firm in Santa Rosa, California, and wrote The Great American Contractor, a satire about the heroes and villains crawling around under your house. Kelly explains why a contractor is a gambler who never gets to deal, how he handled a client who dug up his work and demanded $30,000, and why small contractors should hire someone just to keep clients posted.

Kelly Cowan

Principal, Kelly Cowan Designs · Santa Rosa, California

The short version.

  1. 01

    Learn the law before you need it

    Kelly says the best trade to learn before becoming a contractor is a law degree, because so many jobs end in court or under the threat of it. Know your rights, use a good contract, and have a friend who's an attorney read it.

  2. 02

    Pick the contract you can sleep with

    Time and materials is the fairest way to build, since the client pays exactly what the job costs. But the last invoice is where the fights happen, so Kelly prefers a detailed bid that spells out exactly what he's promising and what he isn't.

  3. 03

    Hire someone to keep clients posted

    For small operations, Kelly's advice is to make communication someone's job: what's ahead of schedule, what changed, what it's costing. Bill for that person's time and be upfront about it with the client.

  4. 04

    Don't let a client destroy the evidence

    Kelly's understanding is that California contractors have a right to repair their own work. When a client dug up his underground work and demanded $30,000, he had wiped out the evidence and Kelly's chance to fix it. Kelly read the email as a bluff and never answered it.

  5. 05

    Relationships beat advertising

    Kelly doesn't advertise. His work comes from word of mouth and from relationships with designers, realtors, past clients, and subcontractors, and he says a good subcontractor you trust is worth more than a cheaper bid.

How Kelly keeps a job out of court.

Kelly's approach to contracts and clients, as he described it on the show.

Before

Surprises at the last invoice

Now

A client who saw every change and cost as it happened

  1. 1

    Write the contract for court

    On a bid, spell out every single thing you're promising to do and what you're not, very explicitly, written as if you'll end up in court one day.

  2. 2

    Open the books on time and materials

    Give the client a clear spreadsheet of the estimate, updates along the way, and invoices that show what everybody did each day, every material, and the markup.

  3. 3

    Over-communicate

    Celebrate when you're ahead of schedule, and flag every change and what it's costing as it happens, so the last invoice holds no surprises.

  4. 4

    Know your rights

    Learn what you're required to do and what you're not, talk to attorneys before you're in trouble, and have one look over your contract.

A design-build contractor and author

Kelly grew up in his dad’s shop learning to use the tools, worked his way up to carpenter and became a licensed contractor in 2006. His firm, Kelly Cowan Designs in Santa Rosa, does design-build, and he likes taking a client from the first sketch of a single-family home all the way to completion, because when the person who designed your home also builds it, very little gets lost in translation. He also fixes permit problems, like red-tag situations where someone built without a permit. He wrote The Great American Contractor, a satire about the heroes and villains crawling around under your house, from the stories he and the people he’s worked with have lived.

A gambler who never gets to deal

No two houses are alike, so a contractor is asked to predict the future: Kelly calls it gambling without ever getting to shuffle, deal, or cut the deck. That’s why he thinks the best trade to learn before contracting is the law. He’s never been sued, but he’s sued to get paid and been threatened with suits, including by a client who dug up all of his underground work, claimed it was ruined, and demanded $30,000 with his attorney copied. Kelly read it as a bluff and never answered. His protection now is a detailed contract and constant communication with the client.

Where the money is

Kelly doesn’t advertise; his work comes from relationships with designers, realtors, past clients, and the subcontractors he trusts. If he weren’t a contractor, he’d go back to carpentry, the part of the job builders actually love. And he thinks the trades are where the money is: he was told he’d end up a plumber if he skipped college, and that plumber is a millionaire now.

Chapters and transcript.

The full conversation, lightly edited for reading. Bracketed text marks a cut or an edit. Pick a chapter or a timestamp to jump there.

00:10

David V. Kimball

Welcome to Retooled, the show where we talk to business leaders about how they've equipped their organizations to adapt to change over time. I'm your host, David, joined by my co-host, Dylan, and we're here to talk to Kelly Cowan. Kelly Cowan Kelly is the principal of Kelly Cowan Designs, based in Santa Rosa, California. We're going to dive into Kelly, how Kelly got started in his business, how it's evolved over time based on the changes in the marketplace and the book he's written. Because it's not like most books you've probably read. So let's start with a bit about who you are, maybe a brief introduction and then start at how you got your start.

00:43

Kelly Cowan

Yeah, thanks. Yeah, so I am a general contractor and my company is a design build firm. So I do a lot of design, do a lot of building. Sometimes I build the things that I design, sometimes I build things that other people design, and sometimes I design things and somebody else ends up building it. And I also do a lot of permit problem resolution. So pulling permits or helping. I have a lot of clients that I help with red tag situations where they've done something without a permit, and the county or city, whatever, has busted them, and they need someone to come in and kind of remedy the situation.

01:30

David V. Kimball

Okay. What's your favorite type of project to work on? You have so many different combinations. Do you like designing more? Do you like doing both? What's your, like, ideal job?

01:38

Kelly Cowan

Yeah, the ideal job would be a design-build. So we would take the client from the very first steps of imagining some beautiful project that they have in mind. I'd say ideally, we really like building single-family detached homes on large pieces of property. That's kind of the ideal. And we take them from, you know, the very first step all the way through to completion. The benefit of that is that, you know, having the person who designed your home actually build your home means that there's very little lost in translation. You'll hear a lot of people, you'll hear a lot of builders complain about architects just designing things that can't be built. And I think you'll hear similar complaints from architects towards builders. But when you can cut out that kind of that translation step, you know, a lot of things that are innate, you know, they don't even have to sometimes end up in a scope of work or an actual line item. They're just kind of assumed and it really kind of makes that transition smooth from start to finish, I think.

03:09

David V. Kimball

And that might be good.

03:10

Kelly Cowan

I think that's the way things used to be built. Really, you know, architects used to be the ones who built buildings back in the day. You would hire an architect to build you a home or a building. You know, that person would end up, they might not be the one pounding nails, but they would be the one who secured all the subcontractors and made sure that your building was built the way it was designed.

03:32

David V. Kimball

Yeah, that might be a good segue into your book, actually. So your book, The Great American Contractor. Um, I love, I absolutely love the quote on the front of the cover, which is he wrote a book I didn't even think he could read. Thank you, Kyle from Reliable Hardware. Kyle gets a shout out for that killer quote. I love that. Um, this is a satire and it's, but it's got a lot of truth behind it. And I got that some of that passion and what you just said. And I feel like that relates. So I'm curious, what was your inspiration for the book? Why did you write it in the way that you did? And what's like the main message you want to get across from it?

04:07

Kelly Cowan

Yeah, I guess I probably had no business writing a book, but I just felt like there was a, you know, the subtitle of the book is the heroes and villains that are crawling around under your house right now. I think that most people don't really realize what's going on underneath their house. And so I wanted to write a book that kind of peeled back the curtain and showed people, you know, the good and the bad, the ugly stuff that's going on that you don't know about. And then the good stuff that the heroes really that are out there that are risking their lives in some situations to build their homes. You know, roofers have a it's one of the most dangerous jobs in America and no one. You know, there's no parades or anything, celebrations for the roofers who are risking their lives to build your house. So, yeah, I just wanted to. And, you know, the book kind of came out as more of a it's a it's a narrative nonfiction. It's it's kind of a memoir, although that wasn't really my intention. But, you know, those are the stories that I know. It's just it's about everything that that I've done and everything that the people that I've worked with have have done in the stories that they've told. I mean, there's some. There's some injury stories in there that are just gruesome and amazing. My my the first guy that I ever worked with when he was 19, he was nailing off the plywood on a chimney, which in California, our chimneys are made of plywood, which might seem kind of funny because they're not fireproof. But the all of the fireproof piping goes inside that. We build them out of plywood, and then we cover them with a brick veneer, so they look brick, but they're really wood. Anyways, he was way up in, like, coffin level height on an extension ladder, and he was nailing off the plywood on this chimney, and he had to reach, you know, really far to get to one side and then really far to get to the other side. That way he wouldn't have to climb down, move the ladder, climb back up and then every, you know, every few feet have to move his ladder. And on one of the last nails he was reaching out so far, he started to the ladder started to slide and he just instinctually reached up with the nail gun in his hand and the trigger depressed and just happened to nail his hand accidentally right through the fleshy part of his of his hand here and nailed himself to the chimney. But luckily that stopped his slide and he was able to pull the ladder back up underneath his feet, pulled out his cat's paw, pulled the nail out. Finished nailing the chimney and then climbed down.

06:54

Dylan Baker

Well, I mean, I mean, at least he finished nailing.

06:57

Kelly Cowan

Well, of course. I mean,

06:58

Dylan Baker

what's he going to do? Not not do it. And then someone else has to go back up and do it for you.

07:04

Kelly Cowan

Do you need a Band-Aid? Get back to work.

07:07

David V. Kimball

Oh, my goodness. Oh my goodness.

07:09

Dylan Baker

Have you always been in contracting? Kelly or like architect or

07:14

Kelly Cowan

pretty much my dad. Sorry, my dad is a general contractor. So I kind of grew up around that. Learning to use the tools in his shop at a really young age. And, you know, what happens in the trades is that you start out as a Well, you start out as a laborer and then you get some tools and you get some skills and you start moving up the ladder and you become a good carpenter and you get to a level where you're a really good carpenter. And the obvious next thing for you to do is to become a contractor. And, you know, you've worked your whole career up to that point with. There being this guy, this boss on the job, who's the contractor. And you just, you see that as like, obviously, that's the goal. But the skills that make you a good carpenter are not necessarily the skills that make you a good contractor. But you do it because that's just, that's the goal. That's where you're supposed to go. And then you get there and you're like, holy crap, like, what have I, what have I done? You know, I always say that the, the best skill that you can acquire, the best trade that you can acquire before becoming a contractor is a law degree. Because at the end of the day, that is going to come in handy way more than knowing how to build things as a contractor.

08:39

Dylan Baker

Makes sense. Like I, I feel like I think David and I chatted with someone in like. I don't know what it's technically called, but it's he's a general contractor, but he he wanted to pivot his business to where he helps people buy like plots of land, set up all of the, you know, like the plumbing and the electric and the foundation and stuff from like start to finish. He wanted to work on the projects and we were talking to him about how like the loopholes you have to go through to like make sure you do everything the right way. It's like very confusing. Right.

09:14

Kelly Cowan

Oh, yeah.

09:15

Dylan Baker

Like, I can't even imagine being held responsible for all of that. And then like, you like mess up and somehow it kind of like unravels, you know, the deal for you or whatever.

09:26

Kelly Cowan

Yeah, you mess up or a subcontractor messes up or a lot of times there's just, you know, we're asked to predict the future as contractors. And there's just, you know, no two houses have ever been built that were identical. Even in tract homes where you come close to building the same house over and over again, there are differences between those houses. They're not on the same exact plot of land. And so especially when you're doing custom stuff, there's just there's no way to know what obstacles are going to come up. And so you are asked to you're basically a gambler as a contractor who never gets to deal, never gets to shuffle, never gets to cut the deck. You just are out there gambling, hoping that you've allotted enough time and money and delve as deeply into what you're doing as you can to get it right. And that doesn't even factor in the personal relation part of the job. So a lot of times in residential, you have clients who are the project that you're doing for them is the most important thing in their life at that time. It is their baby. You know, commercial is not that way. But with residential, like there's a lot of emotions that can get tied up in it, especially then you also end up becoming a marriage counselor.

10:47

David V. Kimball

Oh, my goodness.

10:51

Kelly Cowan

So, yeah, we're asking we're asking contractors to be who who essentially are artists. You know, most people that are that are builders, they are they love building. They love. Taking time at the end of the day to look back at what they did and, you know, how they solved these intricate problems that you can't possibly create a detail for. You just have to be a creative genius in some situations. And we're asking these artists to be attorneys, really. You know, that is so many jobs end up. If not in court, with the threat of court, either explicitly stated or just implied that's out there. So, you know, they don't really prepare you for that. And California is especially litigious. I'm not sure. Are you guys in California?

11:45

David V. Kimball

I'm based in Washington, but I was going to ask you about that because I imagine you're especially uphill in California.

11:52

Kelly Cowan

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a very heavily regulated state and very litigious state. And, you know, that's a big reason why building costs so much in California. There's nothing that unique about California that makes, makes materials cost more or labor costs more. I mean, labor does cost more, but a big part of that is that there are so many, it's so expensive to, to have labor in California. So yeah, it's, it's a, it's a, there's a big bureaucratic element to, to building in California that is not there in other states. Yeah, I mean, we don't have to go too deep into that. But, you know, in Tennessee, where I've spent a lot of time, like it's I talked to contractors there and they're just blown away by what we have to go through.

12:47

David V. Kimball

So have you always done business in California? And how long have you been, I guess, in the industry versus doing your own thing with your own firm?

12:56

Kelly Cowan

Yeah, I've always been a contractor in California. I've done projects in other states, just kind of as favors to, to friends who live elsewhere. But yeah, I, I've been a contractor since 2006, I think.

13:12

Dylan Baker

Wow.

13:12

Kelly Cowan

Yeah, but yeah, I was very young, you know, but that, like I said, that was just like, well, that's what you're supposed to do. You just go get your contractor's license. But there were times where I quit my contracting business. There was one period, I, I just had had enough. I had, I had just finished a project where I had to sue my client in order to get paid. And I ended up winning because I was totally in the right. But you know, you go through that you feel like you've done something wrong, even when you haven't. And it just those kinds of things just kept happening. And it's like, man, I'm done with this. So I went and worked for a landscaper and then another builder for a couple years. And then My cousin wanted me to design and build his house. So I kind of jumped back in the game at that point.

14:00

David V. Kimball

You mentioned like you're required essentially to be an attorney multiple times in this conversation. Have you had to do any, have you, have you had these situations where there's been litigious or someone sued you or whatever, and he went time to hit the books and like be a pseudo attorney? Like how have you done any like education or training in that regard?

14:21

Kelly Cowan

Uh, I did apply to law school, got accepted, but, uh, just didn't, didn't quite have the bandwidth to do it. I thought I was going to do it, but I'm not doing it. But, um, I've never been sued. I've sued people. Like I mentioned, um, I've been threatened to be sued. So for example, we did a project once down in Marin and this client And who actually had hired my dad as well at the same time. This client screwed my dad out of, my dad built two really beautiful windows for him. And he only paid for one and told him, made up some excuse why he wasn't going to pay for the other. And then we had done a bunch of underground work for the guy. So we, in his, next to his house, between his house and his pool, we put in sewer lines, downspout drains, you know, rainwater drains, gray water, water, electrical, low voltage, you name it, all the underground stuff. And when we had hooked up the, the drain water from the, from the downspouts, we missed one somehow, of about 10 that were in there. He called us up and said, hey, you screwed up. You didn't hook up this one pipe. And we said, oh, geez, sorry, we'll come back and we'll hook that up. And we said, you know, it's not much work, it's a short little run. We showed up and he had dug up everything that we had done and claimed that we had ruined all of the underground work by, by not putting sand in the trenches and then compacting the soil with a vibroplate, which I don't know if you're familiar with that. It's just a small kind of vibrating compactor handheld. And when we walked up and we saw that he had dug everything up, my partner and I looked at each other and we're like, you shouldn't have done that, dude, because it ruined all evidence that anything had been done. The fact is that we did everything perfectly. There's no possible way that this, this compacting, this small vibrating compactor would have done any damage to these really heavy duty pipes. And the guy had just basically wanted to, um, to, to screw us. And so he said, you owe me $30,000, and if you don't respond to this email by Friday, I'm, I'm going to take you to court. And he had CC'd his attorney on it. And being the legal expert that I now am, having done contracting for so long, I saw that and I just knew right away that he was bluffing. The fact that he had cc'd his attorney was just kind of a bluff. And I, to this day, have not responded to that email.

17:06

David V. Kimball

Wow. That is fascinating.

17:08

Kelly Cowan

But it's like, it's just, you know, those games, like you just, you have to have such a thick skin and just be so ready for war. I mean, the greatest client in the world, like can all of a sudden. Turn into a nightmare. And I don't I don't know what that is. You know, I don't feel like you see that in in other industries. You know, I write in my book about like if you you go to the doctor and you need to have knee surgery. And you ask your doctor, like, so how much is this going to cost? He'll just he'll look at you like. How would I possibly know that? I don't know. You just you just do it and then you pay for it. And if you don't, then we will you go bankrupt. Like there's no negotiating. They can't even tell you what it's going to cost.

17:52

Dylan Baker

How do you so I mean, getting back into kind of like the law stuff, like how do you draft your contracts and your agreements before you move forward with? You know, your clients, like, do they usually draft something or or do you draft it and then you have their, you know, like their and their law team look over it before you like move forward on stuff? Or how do you go about it nowadays since you've kind of like been in the weeds a couple of times?

18:16

Kelly Cowan

Yeah, well, so there's two ways. There's many ways, but there's two main ways to to do a contract. You can either give a lump sum bid. It's going to cost X to do this project. This is the scope of work. This is every single thing that I'm promising to do. And it's very, very detailed because you're writing it knowing that you're going to end up in court one day. So you need to know exactly what you're promising to do and what you're not promising to do. And you have to be very explicit about that. It rarely, I mean, sometimes people say, okay, let's go. And they don't even sign the contract. They just say, yeah, get started. It looks great. Other people will go through it and edit things out and whatnot. But the other way to do it is with a time and materials contract. And, you know, time and materials is really the, it's the only fair way to build. It's not without its problems. And it probably causes more problems than a lump sum does. But It's the fairest way to do it because you're paying for exactly what it costs to build your project that I've never built before. No one's ever built before. We don't know how this is going to go, but I will give you a very clear spreadsheet on how I'm estimating this. I'll give you updates as we go along. My invoices will be extremely detailed, showing what everybody did on every single day, what every single. A piece of material that was purchased goes to what my markup is. It's all just an open book.

19:48

Dylan Baker

Transparency. Yeah.

19:49

Kelly Cowan

Otherwise, with a bid, there has to be a winner and there has to be a loser. And I'm going to guess that it's going to cost a lot more than I think it's actually going to cost because I can't afford to lose. And so if I lose, then the homeowner wins. Oh, I got it done for cheaper than it actually costs to do it. But with time and materials, it only costs exactly what it costs. Now, that usually works out good for about three quarters of the project. And then as you're wrapping up, people start to get a little antsy with how much the project is costing, because every project that's ever been done has costed more and taken longer than we initially thought it would. Right. But It is what it is. We couldn't predict all these things. But at that point, they do tend to get a little antsy. And then we start having a little bit of friction towards the end. And then that last invoice, you end up fighting over and you may or may not get paid. And that's typically how it goes. So I do prefer doing a bid because it's just much more clear and laid out. There's, you know, it's not without its problems. Also, there's going to be change orders along the way, and those can cause some friction. But at the end of the day, I think it's, you sleep better at night having a bid rather than time and materials.

21:07

David V. Kimball

Yeah. Two questions from that, excuse me. The first question is for other contractors that are in that, maybe they're in that situation where they're like near the final stretch, but there's that antsiness you're talking about. What would you advise for them to how to handle the situation? Because you're talking about relationship management at that point. And then secondly, for just business owners generally, if they get some kind of letter where they're like being threatened for legal action, you said that you had enough knowledge to know that it was a bluff. So I'm sort of curious if you could go a bit more into that and say if you whether you kind of know it's a bluff. And this is obviously not legal advice. You can give your own disclaimers because that would be a good idea probably. But I think a lot of people would really benefit from knowing how to handle those situations.

21:49

Kelly Cowan

Right. I would say to your first question, it is for the people out there who are running a very tight, small, low to the ground operation. Maybe they don't even have any employees and they sub everything out. Hire somebody to handle communication with your client and bill for that person's time and be upfront about that with your client, because the only way to avoid those problems is to be constantly communicating and updating your client. We we said we'd be here. We're actually here. We're ahead of schedule on this. Make sure that's really, you know, celebrated in your email. Mm-hmm. And our budget was this, but we've had these changes over time. And don't forget, you asked us to do this and we didn't give you an estimate, but it's costing. It looks like it's costing this much. So just like overwhelming communication. I would definitely hire somebody and make it their role. Maybe they have more than one role, but they're one of their roles is to keep really good, clear communication going. And as far as. The legal, you know, knowing you just, you, the legal stuff is so important and you really have to become well-versed in it. If you have any friends that are attorneys, talk to them, research. Research the law around what you're required to do, what you're not required to do. Contractors in California have a legal right to repair. You are then, again, I'm not an attorney, but this is what I've heard, you have the right to fix something that went wrong. So, that was why that situation with the underground that I was talking about, when he dug everything up, He prevented me from being able to repair it. So he took away my right to repair it. So sorry, it's on you. I would have fixed it, but you destroyed all of it. There's things like that, that, yeah, you just, when you take the contractor's exam, you cram for it. For two days and then the third day you take the test, you answer all the questions correctly and you have no idea how you know that stuff and it disappears very quickly. Actually, I do remember there was one question on the, for example, on the contractor's licensing exam in California, and it said, On a masonry wall, how often do you need a clean out? And the answer is six feet. But I don't know what a clean out on a masonry wall does. I didn't know masonry walls have clean outs. To this day, it makes zero sense to me, but I answered that question correctly. And so the same thing applies with the law portion of the test. It is wildly, it's extremely important, but most of us just kind of cram for it. The bar for entry into contractordom is set pretty low, but you should pay attention to the law. Be a little bit better than most of the people that you know. Just know your rights, know what's expected. Talk to attorneys. Hopefully you don't have to talk to an attorney because you're being sued or being threatened to be sued. But yeah, just get out in front of all that stuff. Get a good contract. Find a contract online. Use it. Send it to your friend who's an attorney. Have them look over it. Make sure that your contract is really, really good. That'll save you a lot of headache.

25:42

David V. Kimball

So I'm hearing be really proactive and try not to be reactive when it's happening. It was happening. I'm wondering, there's two other things I want to ask you about. One is, there's just so much interesting stuff that you're talking about here. So what we really want to know too is, you've been in the business since 2006, I think you said. Licensed since then, yeah. You licensed us then, you've done work in the business with your dad before that obviously as well. Well, so what... Changes in technology have you witnessed? I mean, you've probably witnessed like a tsunami of differences. And I'm wondering, like, how have you adapted to those changes over time?

26:20

Kelly Cowan

Yeah, you know, it's funny. I am of the opinion that technology in the trades is the evolution of technology is is far behind everything else. I don't feel like there have been many technological advancements in the trades that you do see in other industries. Probably the one that's jumped out though when you first asked that question is one of my first jobs, I think I was like 25. The contractor on the job didn't have a cell phone. And this was, how old am I? So this was like 20 years ago. So everyone had cell phones at this point. But this guy was old school. He refused to have a cell phone on the job. So the first thing he would do is get the phone company to run a phone line out to the job and he'd plug in a phone with a cord on it, you know, like. And it would just ring. And so to get a hold of him, you had to call the job site. Somebody would answer it and be like, hey, is Dale there? You're like, yeah, Dale, the phone. So I couldn't do the job that I do now without a cell phone. That's the majority. I rarely swing a hammer anymore. And it's, it's my cell phone is by far the most important tool in my tool bag. You know, nail guns too. Back on that same job, we framed a 4500 square foot house by hand, just hammer and nail. And I have tendonitis today to prove it. Because I wasn't swinging the hammer properly. If you do swing a hammer, make sure you learn how to properly swing it. But nail guns now, everybody frames with nail guns and I don't think it's quicker. I think it allows people with less skill to do a framing job. They don't have to learn quite as much, but you still need a hammer. When you are laying out a wall and you're going through, you're nailing the bottom plate to each stud. You still need to pull out your hammer and whack it a few times just to keep it tight. A good framer with a hammer and nail, like you only hit the nail three times. And that last hit that drives it home kind of tightens everything up. So I would argue that a skilled framer with hammer and nail is just as quick as a unskilled laborer that's going through with a nail gun. Plus, not to mention the hose is always getting caught.

29:01

Dylan Baker

Totally makes sense. I was actually going to ask you, I'm curious too, how are you currently like getting new clients and new business? I don't know if you're running any sort of like Google ads or if like you're getting leads in through your website or whatnot, but could you get a little bit more into that?

29:22

Kelly Cowan

I do get some work through my website, tends to be typically just a lot of permit related stuff, but I don't, I don't advertise at all. All of my work, the good Lord just provides it. You know, I think that having been in the business for so long, just word of mouth. Knowing people, I think that if I was going to give advice to somebody, I would say just develop really good relationships with designers, realtors, try to maintain every relationship you can with your clients, good relations with subcontractors. A good subcontractor is the most valuable thing that a contractor, a general contractor. Can have because you don't you don't need to get competitive bids when you have someone that, you know, and trust because the temptation to go with a cheaper bid will, you know, you'll get burned by that a lot. So for sure. You know, you have a you have a great electrician who does all of your work for you. You know, maybe you get a competitive bid once in a while just to kind of keep them keep them honest. But that relationship will develop into clients also. I'm sure advertising is helpful. I know guys that do it. But if you don't have a chain of custody between yourself and the client, then you. You... You aren't required to be, your reputation isn't going to be affected with that person who gave you the recommendation. And that client's reputation is not going to be affected if they do something shady with the person who recommended to you, right? So having a chain of custody between your client and yourself, I think is very valuable.

31:27

Dylan Baker

It probably keeps people more honest and like throughout the whole process.

31:31

David V. Kimball

I just want to know, like speaking of that, are there any subcontractors or vendors you've worked with who you want to give a shout out to? Maybe someone that you've worked with recently.

31:43

Kelly Cowan

Let's give a shout out to Kyle of Reliable Steel since he wrote that quote in the front of my book.

31:50

David V. Kimball

Okay. Dylan, are there any other questions you want to ask Kelly while he's here?

31:56

Dylan Baker

Kelly, if you weren't a general contractor, what would you be doing for work right now, you think?

32:04

Kelly Cowan

Well, I would probably not be an author because there's no money in that. I wouldn't probably be a podcast host because I do have a podcast. And there's no money in that either. I'm sure, you know, it's funny, you guys actually are doing the right thing. You guys have it figured out. You've found a niche that's related to business that your podcast is probably going to blow up. It's probably going to be amazing. Mine is just discussing controversial topics that nobody wants to be associated with.

32:39

Dylan Baker

I want to. I want to be associated. I like that type of stuff.

32:43

David V. Kimball

You found the most underhanded, low-key way to really amp us up about it, man. We gotta know about it now.

32:49

Dylan Baker

Yeah, you definitely don't want to see David and I's private messages because we do gossip like little girls about stuff sometimes.

32:58

Kelly Cowan

Oh, we joke about that all the time. If the FBI ever went through my phone messages between myself and my podcast partners, it would just be devastating.

33:08

Dylan Baker

You'd be cooked. You'd be cooked, dude.

33:12

David V. Kimball

NSA listening, don't pay any mind to that.

33:18

Kelly Cowan

What would I be doing? I'd if I wasn't a contractor, I'd probably just I'd probably be a carpenter. I'd probably just go back to work doing the thing that we all actually love to do, which is building. You know, and not having to deal with the the backroom side of it. Just show up in the morning, build something beautiful, stand back and stare at the end of the day and and then go home and turn my brain off.

33:50

Dylan Baker

Awesome. I think like finished carpentry and like doing like the trim work and stuff is like really slept on. And it's like kind of like a dying thing to where I guess maybe the newer generation isn't like. Really investing much time and stuff like that. And, you know, I think it's really cool that you still do it or or or that you would be doing it if you weren't doing the general contracting route of things.

34:16

Kelly Cowan

Yeah, it's funny you say that. My dad is a historic preservation specialist and he builds doors and windows that are historically consistent. So, you know, if you, you know, go to a Victorian home and they have the old weights inside the casing of the window that keep the window up and down, like, you know, that kind of a window, he can restore those and build those. And that skill that he has when he dies, that's gone.

34:48

Dylan Baker

No one else is going to do it. Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy. Like how, like, if you, if you think about how, like. I wouldn't say David and I's generation but maybe the generation below us. It feels like everyone wants to be like living on the internet and like wants to be like an influencer like go that route and then like the trade work is more of like a dying thing. But in the long term the trade work is probably where the money's at right now. So like Like if I was 16 or 17 and I had that, you know, the mindset that I have is, you know, being a 33 year old man now, I would think, man, like I should just become an electrician because like electricians, you know, 10 years ago were still making 100 grand. Like, what are they going to make when no one else wants to do the job? Because like the demand is still going to be there. It's just no one wants to do it. Like if no one wants to do it, then it goes up and then, you know, you end up making more money or your subcontractors end up making more money. Because, you know, it's these jobs that, you know, I don't want to say like, you know, like my generation or the one below me is soft, but it appears that they're not willing to do the hard work.

36:01

Kelly Cowan

Yeah, 100 percent. You know, when I was in high school, I was told you are going to college. There's just no question about it. You have no choice in the matter. And the argument was like, if you don't go to college, you're going to end up like this plumber over here. You're like, oh, I don't want to be a plumber. Right. Meanwhile, that plumber is a millionaire right now. And my college degree was is worthless. It's literally worthless. I mean, I would say the only thing I learned in college was how to jump through the hoops that that the colleges make you jump through. And you do run into a lot of hoops in your life. But there's other ways to learn that. My son is eight years old and I do not want him to go to college. I want him to learn to be the most interesting man in the world and have all sorts of skills that are invaluable, but I don't see any need for him to go to college. And I think that, yeah, like you said, becoming an electrician is going to be a dying breed. And there's going to be always going to be money in that. I think the day when robots replace electricians is far, far away from where we are now.

37:14

Dylan Baker

We'll be long gone. By then. Like a robot is not going to run, you know, the wires through, I don't know, an office building. Like, it's just not going to happen within our lifetime. Like, yeah, there's too much room for error. Yeah, like, there's too much room for error.

37:32

Kelly Cowan

You send a robot into someone's house to do a remodel and you'd come home and the house would just be on fire or something, you know. There's just, it's impossible to. I wouldn't mind seeing that. That would be interesting. But let's, yeah, I don't think we have, anyone has anything to worry about robots replacing their job, you know, running wires through old wood studs.

37:54

David V. Kimball

What about ending this show on a note about parenting? So what's one thing that surprised you about being a dad that you didn't expect? I have, just while you think of that response, I have an almost two-year-old and a five-month-old daughter and almost two-year-old boy. And for me, man, it's true what they say, like your capacity to love really just grows. It comes out of nowhere and you have more ability to love than I ever expected.

38:25

Kelly Cowan

Yeah, that's awesome, man. Happy for you. I have just the one. And what what I always marvel at is that I, I don't know how I was so fortunate to be given a responsibility, like the responsibility of raising a man, you know, I know what it's like to be a man. So somehow I was given The most important job in the world and this responsibility that's like greater than any responsibility on earth. It's a greater responsibility than being president of the United States. Like this gift of like having to turn a small child into a man is just overwhelming and you can't describe it to someone that doesn't have kids. But It's like the greatest honor of my life. Like I feel like every day I just feel like how did I get so lucky to be given the honor of turning this boy into a man? It's amazing. And if anyone out there, oh, here's something. If anyone out there is waiting to have children because They want to get done with school or they want a better job or they need a bigger house. Like, do not wait. I'm we made the mistake of waiting and then it became very, very difficult for us to have a child. And you don't know what life has in store for you. You don't know what your fertility is going to be like. It's getting worse and worse in the modern world. Fertilities are dropping everywhere. Do not wait a second. Like you will figure out how to make it work. You will find the money. In fact, it doesn't really even cost anything to have a baby, right? They live in your house in the exact same house that you're in right now. You don't need another room. You don't need more food. You don't need anything. It's totally cheap to do. And because it is the greatest thing that will ever happen to you, do not mess around with it. Don't risk the possibility that it might not. happen for you. So, just stop waiting and start having babies.

40:36

David V. Kimball

I love it and I completely agree. Dylan, anything else you want to ask Kelly about before we close out the episode?

40:44

Dylan Baker

I'm all good. I think, you know, the insight into the legal battles you faced and how you overcame them and how you're still a general contractor, I think that's awesome. That's awesome. Because… You know, I always like to ask people on like the show, like, was there ever a point where you thought about giving up? And you obviously said that you had a couple of times where you thought about it. And, you know, it's cool that you kept going is what I'm what I'm getting at. So but other than that, all good on my end.

41:14

David V. Kimball

Yeah, awesome. Kelly, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to do business with you. What's the best place to reach you?

41:20

Kelly Cowan

Yeah, just go to my website, KellyCowanDesigns.com. And yeah, shoot me a message.

41:26

David V. Kimball

Great. Thanks so much for your time.

41:28

Kelly Cowan

Yeah. Thank you guys. Appreciate it.

41:30

David V. Kimball

See ya.

What came up.

The tools Kelly mentioned on the show. We don't take money from any of them.

His cell phoneBy his own count, the most important tool in his tool bag
SpreadsheetsHow he lays out his estimate on time-and-materials jobs
His websiteWhere his permit work tends to come in
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