Episode 747:02November 5, 2026

Isaac LeBaron on why over-promising is roofing's biggest problem

Isaac LeBaron is the president of LeBaron Exteriors, an exterior contractor built around insurance roofing. He started painting on his dad's job sites as a kid and spent seven years in door-to-door sales before roofing. Isaac explains why over-promising is the biggest disconnect in his industry, why he talked an 86-year-old out of filing a claim, and why chasing every new tool is a rabbit hole.

Isaac LeBaron

President, LeBaron Exteriors · the Mountain West

The short version.

  1. 01

    Set the expectation before the claim

    Isaac's shortest claim went from filing to install in four days. His longest took 39 months. He tells homeowners up front that the adjuster may approve the roof, or that deny, defer, delay may come in, with a re-inspection, a lawyer or a public adjuster. He calls over-promising the biggest disconnect in the industry.

  2. 02

    Sometimes the right claim is no claim

    An 86-year-old homeowner without full replacement cost value asked about filing. Isaac told him he'd be filing for someone else, not for himself, and the homeowner coated the roof instead. There are plenty of other jobs when you know what you're doing.

  3. 03

    Let the warranty make the case

    When a customer wants something done a way that isn't a code violation but isn't right, Isaac does it their way only if they sign a paper that voids all warranties. Nobody has ever chosen their way over his.

  4. 04

    Tie paperwork to pay

    Sales reps don't like paperwork, so Isaac's commissions only go in once the digital paperwork is done, from day one, with very few exceptions. Reps are money motivated, and they adopt a system fast once they feel the financial sting.

  5. 05

    Keep tech in balance

    LeBaron Exteriors is tech heavy and uses AI for its Facebook ads, but Isaac calls new tools a rabbit hole. His test for any tool is whether it creates more quality and more volume, because the money comes from knocking doors and swinging hammers.

How Isaac takes a homeowner through an insurance claim.

Isaac's approach to a claim, as he described it on the show.

Before

A homeowner promised a quick new roof

Now

A homeowner who knows what could happen and trusts the company

  1. 1

    Tell them why you're there

    No introductions and no fluff: say it's the hail storm or the missing shingles, and get right to the point.

  2. 2

    Lay out every possibility

    The adjuster may approve the roof, or the insurer may deny, defer and delay, with a re-inspection, a lawyer or a public adjuster. Setting that expectation is the job.

  3. 3

    Manage their emotions

    If the roof isn't leaking today, it doesn't need to happen tomorrow. A comfortable customer who trusts you makes everything flow.

  4. 4

    Act like a professional

    The customer is not your friend. Build rapport where it's genuine, then do the job they let you in to do.

From painter to roofer

Isaac was pulling masking off paint jobs at seven or eight and was essentially a professional painter by 16. He worked for his brother’s painting company, which did faux and decorative finishing, took a 15-month backpacking trip through South America after the 2008 crash, and then spent seven years in door-to-door sales, where his team once won a competition against about 4,000 reps. A friend doing insurance roofing pointed out that he had the construction experience and the sales skills, and the bit of law he’d studied fit an industry spent arguing with insurance companies.

Promise less, explain more

Insurance companies play deny, defer, delay, Isaac says, and the reps who promise a fast roof set everyone up for a fight. He tells homeowners the honest range, from four days to 39 months, and sometimes tells them not to file at all. On his crews’ paperwork, he pays commissions only when it’s done.

Tools, in balance

LeBaron Exteriors runs on RoofLink, with Hover and Roofr for measurements and drawings, and uses AI to help make its Facebook ads. Isaac’s caution is that every new tool is a rabbit hole: software is cheap, people cost the most, and the question is always whether a tool creates more quality and more volume.

Chapters and transcript.

The full conversation, lightly edited for reading. Bracketed text marks a cut or an edit. Pick a chapter or a timestamp to jump there.

00:07

David V. Kimball

Welcome to Retooled, a show where we talk to business leaders about how they've equipped their organization to adapt to change over time. I'm your host, David, joined by my co-host, Dylan, and we're here to talk to Isaac LeBaron. Isaac is the president of LeBaron Exteriors. We're going to dive in, as we always do, on how Isaac got his start in the business, learn how it's evolved with the rapid changes in the marketplace over time, and just kind of get to know him. So please, Isaac, tell us a bit about who you are and how you got your start.

00:37

Isaac LeBaron

So I started out really young, as a lot of kids do, helping dad out on the construction site. They were all house painters. And I started out from there. And then I was fortunate enough early in the career to work for my brother's company that was already innovative. So they were painting contractors, but he did faux finishing and decorative finishing. It was actually published in Maui Magazine. And so I got a taste of not doing what everybody else does and and, you know, having the grassroots basic construction skill, but also branching out. I remember we'd experiment with new products in his garage and that sort of thing. So I grew up through there and then I was actually I decided to make a bit of a change and I was a door to door salesman for a large sales organization for for a good six or seven years. And the combination of those two things, having really, really young construction experience, and then the communication skills that go through, door-to-door sales can be a pretty humiliating job, and the communication skills that came from that kind of pushed me into the industry that I was. I got approached by a friend that was doing insurance roofing, and... I looked at it and I said, well, I've got plenty of roofing experience, plenty of construction experience, and I excelled as a door-to-door salesman. and And as a door-to-door salesman, the organization I was in was really demanded like honesty and transparency up front, which when in the insurance roofing industry, when you're going, when you're dealing with a customer, you're going to deal with that customer for. Typically a very long time. So it already reinforces integrity and honesty is this customer may be your customer for six months while you go through this process. So I was already kind of tooled for it and I just jumped in feet first. And then, you know, the little bit of college that I did was actually geared toward law and I decided it wasn't for me. So Dealing with insurance companies that are throwing the book at you and all that sort of thing was a little bit up my alley. So I actually coincidentally had a, you know, a resume that fit this industry. And so it made it easy to jump in and do exactly this. And I really haven't looked back. Now, we do all kinds of exterior construction retail bids. I have the experience for it. We get the referrals and all that sort of thing. But having the ability and the know-how to deal with insurance companies and their game is deny, defer, delay, deny, defer, delay, and having the patience. And that's what door-to-door sales teaches you that a lot of tradesmen don't have is patience. And it's very necessary in this industry. So that's where I got my starts.

03:30

Dylan Baker

Wow. And I it's it's so crazy, Isaac. You're the third contractor we've talked to in a row that almost went to law school prior to becoming a contractor. I'm not even kidding you. Like the last two gentlemen we spoke to both like either. Studied law or like that was their like first choice I guess but yeah

03:54

Isaac LeBaron

and I mean it's in the name contractor one of the issues with this industry is that contractors are tradesmen and that's good that's good but that's all they are and you're dealing with building code and you're dealing with sensitive customers and sometimes appeasing the customer is not the right decision sometimes you have to throw the book at the customer. what happened So, I had an instance where a customer wanted me to do gutters a different way and I looked at him right in the face and said, you know what? That's not a code violation and I'll do it that way. You just have to sign a paper that voids all warranties. Because if you ask me to do it outside of the way that I know it's right and it's not a code violation, I will comply. But you're not getting a warranty from me if I do it wrong.

04:38

David V. Kimball

What do the customers say to that?

04:41

Isaac LeBaron

They said, do it your way. They don't want to have a product. And it's a little bit of a gimmick because I know they're not going to choose no warranty. They're not going to choose their way. But what a chuck in the truck does is say, we do it right and that's the way it is. Now, if it's a code violation, I have a cop out. So it's a code violation. I just say no. It's illegal. But if it's not a code violation, but it's not the right way to do it, then I just give them the choice. And I've never had someone choose their way over my way when they're going to get a voided warranty. And for them, most of them are reasonable. They're like, well, actually, that's fair enough. You're going to warranty your work. I'm going to warrant you my work, not the homeowner's work.

05:24

David V. Kimball

To me, that sounds like a sale when you learn on the door-to-door salesman side of helping convince the person. Yeah, yeah. Convince the person to make the decision you want them to make, but make it feel like it's their idea.

05:36

Isaac LeBaron

And that's what an honest salesman does, is you lead people to a decision that benefits them the best. I talked somebody out of filing a claim yesterday. The guy's 86 years old. He doesn't have full replacement cost value. And I said, if you if you file this claim, you're doing it for somebody else. And, you know, I let him establish that he's old because it's rude. Right. But but if you file this claim, you're filing it for someone else, not for you. And and they decided to just coat the roof for more peace of mind because, you know, these damaged shingles are brittle, they're more likely to blow off the roof. And he decided to coat the roof instead. And. And, um, uh... There's plenty of fish in the sea, especially if you know what you're doing and you don't have to try to get money out of somebody that shouldn't be spending money.

06:21

David V. Kimball

Yeah. So you've had you started with like helping with your dad's business. Then you did your sales for a while. Then you're back. Can you give us a timeline? How many years were you in each like in each epoch of your career? How many years was for each?

06:35

Isaac LeBaron

Well, I'm 40 years old now. Um, and the first job site I think I was ever on, I was probably seven or eight. Um, uh, seven, yeah, probably seven or eight, um, pulling masking off of a paint job. And then the first time I ever showed up in, in, you know, any real, like, with a hammer or a paintbrush in my hand. I was probably 12. I spent summers and weekends and all that sort of thing. But I was essentially a professional painter. Nights, weekends, summers, all of that by the time I was 16 years old. I played sports in high school, so I had a pretty busy schedule. But every minute I had, I wanted money. And my family didn't have money, so I wanted a new skateboard. I went to work. And and so I would say by 16, I mean, I had the painter whites and I and they were in my backpack and I would pull them out and go to work. Uh, um... So and then, you know. By the time and actually I tested into college, I actually dropped out of high school to go to work. I tested into college and then that's where the potential law career started. And I was actually painting. For one of the biggest construction, the biggest construction lawyer in Utah, Mark Paulson, Paulson Law. And I was doing some paintwork for him and he told me about the life of a lawyer. And that's when I decided I wasn't going to be a lawyer. I've seen you guys ever watch the show Suits before?

08:16

Dylan Baker

Yes. Yeah.

08:18

Isaac LeBaron

It makes being a lawyer seem kind of fun,

08:21

Dylan Baker

but I know that that's obviously a fictional show and it seems like they get in the weeds a lot. I

08:27

Isaac LeBaron

get a taste of that. Like when I'm dealing with insurance adjusters, I can't quote policy. I don't have I don't have a I'm not an insurance agent and I'm not a lawyer, so I can't quote policy. But I can quote building code and I can talk about payment when they've misquoted a job and that sort of thing. So I get a little bit of lawyer experience dancing around what I can't say. I know what's in the policy. I know what's in all the policies and I know essentially what they need to do. But that's not the certificate that I hold.

09:01

David V. Kimball

Totally, totally makes sense. Yeah. So, yeah, I want to hear the next chapter after that. You see, OK, I'm not going to be a lawyer. So then what happened after that?

09:10

Isaac LeBaron

I continued painting and doing construction and then and I started branching out from painting at that point. And then we had the market crash 2008, 2009. And then there's a 15 month sabbatical where I bought a one way ticket and backpack South America. Well, that's awesome. And yeah, when did the youth hostel thing and all that sort of thing? I had plenty, you know, I made good money and all that sort of thing and didn't have any responsibilities. And I, you know, I started working really young. And so I just decided, well, everybody was playing while I was working. Now I'm going to go play while it's 2008. Everybody's, you know. Company owners are working for wages instead of being company owners. And so I took off. And then when I got back, I, you know, kind of a fresh start, got back to the US. And that's when I jumped into door-to-door sales. And the first job I got was a bit of a gimmick. It was a dealer for a cable provider. and And, um... Uh, the just everything was just not set up well. Nobody was really making any money. And then one of the guys working there had a connection with security alarm company. And I ended up going and doing door to door sales for them. I went out my first summer and I still have the cheesy little trophy trophy for rookie of the year. That's awesome. Awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. And then I went on, I went on, I went to another organization and they have a huge sales competition and, we won that against the entire huge organization, like 4,000 sales reps. We won their annual competition. And we were picked like 16th to win. And so I had a pretty decent career in door-to-door sales and a spot-free track record. You know, door-to-door salesmen have a reputation for being slimy or dishonest. And I had a spot-free track record. And that's how we sell today. It's very blunt. No fluff. Like, I don't even introduce the company when we show up. I'm like, we're here because of the hailstorm or we're here because of those missing shingles. Immediately tell them why we're there and get right to the point. Um, and, um, And then once they're educated on what we're doing, we have a little bit, I don't like to be harsh about it, but we have a little bit of [bleep] the pot attitude. Like, you know what we're here to do. You need to research us, get to trust me and then call me. Or, you know, if they're ready to go, then they're ready to go. But if not, a very. Like, I'm not going to sit here and butter you up. We're going to move on to the next house while you think about it. Kind of an approach.

11:59

David V. Kimball

So how many years did you do that sales work? It seems like you did quite a bit in that time.

12:03

Isaac LeBaron

Seven.

12:04

David V. Kimball

Seven years? Okay. Oh, wow.

12:06

Isaac LeBaron

And so... Yeah. Yeah. And I'm still technically doing it. There's seven years of solar and alarm door to door sales. And then from there, from there, I went back into just straight up construction. And then that's when I got introduced to this industry.

12:24

David V. Kimball

Cool. Wow. It seems like a really helpful combination of experience and interest, the sales and the legal stuff. What would you say? What's the biggest gap in the industry, in your opinion, when it comes to them being able to sell well or know, like, what's the bigger gap? Is it is it folks in your industry that don't know how to sell well? Or is it folks that don't have enough understanding of like the legal nomenclature and like the books, I guess you would say?

12:53

Isaac LeBaron

Um, so I would say sell well. And the reason is, is that there's actually a lot of companies out there that will help you do the back end with the insurance company. It's pricey. In this industry, you've got installation, you've got sales, and then you've got back end with the insurance company. And you start, insurance tends to pay a little bit better than retail work, but you start slicing that pie too many ways and you have a problem. So I'd actually say that selling well and it really comes down, the selling well comes down to insecure sales reps. They want that customer. They want that money. So they over promise. And this can drag out. I tell people the shortest claim I ever filed or that I ever worked from filing to install was four days. We filed it on a Tuesday. The next day, adjuster showed up. That adjuster had the authority to write checks and we roofed it that Friday. The longest one I ever worked on was in Sun Valley, Idaho, and it was 39 months from the time it was filed to the time it was roofed. And, um... And so over-promising, I think, is the biggest disconnect in this industry. You have to tell people, hey, there's a good chance the adjuster is going to show up, see the damage, approve the roof. I'm going to have a little tussle over the price that they offer. And then we're going to roof your house. And there's a good chance that deny, defer, delay is going to come in. And we're going to have to call for a re-inspect, get a lawyer, public adjuster, that all these things are possibilities. And properly setting that expectation I think is the biggest disconnect because when we suggest that the customer hires a public adjuster, a lot of times that public adjuster is getting that file on that case with an expectation that this should have been done quickly. And if the expectation that it should have been done quickly is properly placed on the insurance company, like it's their fault, because it is, we want to get paid. It's not our fault. It's taking forever. We're biased, right? We want to get paid and we want to get paid fast. When it comes through that way, that's the issue. Now, the knowledge side that you asked, there's a little bit of an issue there. There's things you can't say and there's things you can't do. And when these sales reps start getting a little bit of knowledge about how to fight the insurance company, they can overstep. But that's not nearly as big as the customer's emotions are a big deal. And it's the sales rep's job to manage the customer's emotions. And when if you tell the customer this could take a long time and your roof ain't leaking today. So sit back. And realize this might take a while. And as long as your roof's not leaking, it doesn't need to happen tomorrow. We'd like it to.

15:41

Dylan Baker

Definitely, definitely makes sense. We, David and I spoke to a general contractor that worked in commercial painting recently. And he was saying how like the laws work in the state that he's in. He's in California. His payouts are like net 90 days. Is it like that in your industry or do you usually get paid out pretty quickly regarding when the job finishes?

16:05

Isaac LeBaron

So we get a deposit and it's inconsistent. So insurance pays out actual cash value, so the depreciated value of the project initially. And they determine that and it's usually not worth the effort for us to challenge the depreciation. How much is depreciated? So we do get some money up front. And then the final payouts vary a lot. I'd say average is about, it's not 90 days. I think average is a little bit less than that, but it's more than 60.

16:41

Dylan Baker

Wow. Crazy, man. Well, from you were doing door to door sales, what in like the 2010s? Yeah, door to door sales then from from like then, like technology wise, were you essentially just handed like a list of people or were you handed like a zip code?

17:00

Isaac LeBaron

No, the moment I got into door to door, they had a maps app that had in fact, those companies were early adopters, very early adopters of that technology. And some of the larger companies had their own development teams and develop their apps. So I Now we had that where there was bad cell phone service and you couldn't access the app on your device. In fact, we used iPads and we would have an AT &T plan on our phone and a Verizon plan on our iPad just in case one had better service, that kind of thing. But so using apps from my very first year was a real thing. Having to use paper was an occasional thing.

17:52

David V. Kimball

Fascinating. In the early adopter stage that you found yourself in, what were some of the growing pains that you saw that kind of got dialed in by the time that you exited that I guess that epoch?

18:07

Isaac LeBaron

When we first started using the apps, they didn't do the digital agreements. We had to carry around paper agreements. It was more of a door tracking app in the beginning. And then they had digital agreements. Everything was, as we all know, everything was much more clunky back then. So we would get constant updates and you would have, you know, instead of updating it the normal way, you'd delete it and reinstall it just to make sure. And, you know, when you're doing door to door sales or any sales, really, that's that's 100 percent commission. You need things to work in order to make money. If your phone dies, you know, you have a battery bank, you have all this sort of thing to make sure. And so the apps were clunky back then. And we would carry around paper agreements because oftentimes the door tracking technology had been adopted much earlier. It was less clunky. And. You had homeowners, everyone's used to it. Almost everyone is used to a digital signature now. That's commonplace. When I started doing door to door sales, people were still skeptical of digital signatures and things like that. So adopting that and then the CRMs, they they they started getting it much more advanced and carrying more data like if if you know the tax records you could see you know unless something had recently changed you could actually see who owned the home right from the app and that that sort of thing so um the as they get more complicated you know how us now have crms that have the weather data for storm chasing you can you can architecturally draw the roof from a satellite image uh all of that sort of thing is is definitely a lot further along than it was but every time something new comes out it's clunky

20:08

David V. Kimball

yeah that's awesome that you got access to that so early what um tech and what tech changes have you seen in the industry you're in now because you sort of touched on it when you were super young then you saw it again you see it again now as you're as you're kind of an owner operator i i that's the right way to describe you you're you're So you're the president. So however you want to describe yourself and in terms of your oversight, how have you adopted technology in the current day and how have you seen that change? And then maybe in light of the sales stuff, have you been able to pull any of that into what you do now? So,

20:42

Isaac LeBaron

Um, so So we're definitely tech heavy. And the funny thing is, is that it doesn't matter how small you are anymore. It used to be that the tech stuff was for the big guys. And it doesn't matter anymore. The apps are subscription based. You're not picking up a $5,000 set of software. You can adopt it. And they usually have really reasonable couple thousand bucks for a startup fee. And then so much per month per user and that sort of thing. So the more complicated the CRM is, the more time you have to set it up. So the better it is typically, the harder it is to learn and it's being customized for your company. So the difficult part is getting people on board and it's not as difficult as it was because now most of these CRMs, the sales guy doesn't have to know the whole thing. And that's the toughest part is if you're trying to expand and you're trying to grow, you want the sales guys doing very little else other than sales. And so in the beginning, everybody kind of had to know everything in the CRM. So you pick the simple one. Now you can pick the complex CRM because they only need to know part of it in order for them to function. And then the people in the back office can can understand the more complex parts of how the technology works. Even on that, sales guys don't like paperwork. And that's the you kind of have to financially incentivize them or punish them for not doing their digital paperwork. And that's a tough part is is getting that done. But if you just start it from day one and it's real simple, you turn in your commissions on this day, you get paid on this day. And if your paperwork's not done, it's not turned in. And you can't make very many exceptions to that. And then these are sales guys, they're money motivated. And if you put that in front of them, they tend to adopt it really fast. If they feel the financial sting, they tend to adopt it pretty fast.

23:01

Dylan Baker

What are you using for CRM right now, Isaac?

23:03

Isaac LeBaron

We use RoofLink. And it is a little bit clunky, but it's the only one that does everything.

23:12

Dylan Baker

So that's for specifically the roofing industry or just general contracting?

23:16

Isaac LeBaron

It's specifically for the roofing industry and it was built by a storm roofing company. And that's why it does everything, but that's also why it's a little clunky. And it was bought by SalesRabbit, which is probably the biggest, I think it is the biggest door-to-door sales app that there is, is SalesRabbit. The companies that don't have their own in-house software are typically using SalesRabbit. And so it's getting, like anything, it's getting less clunky.

23:47

Dylan Baker

Cool. Nice. Do you guys, it's like your internal team, like, do they talk about investing in like building your own custom bespoke software for your specific business? Or is that something you guys haven't really chatted about before?

24:01

Isaac LeBaron

Oh, I think everybody's chatted about it. For most companies, it's a daydream because it's expensive. Um, uh, and I think in storm chasing, what do they call it, storm chasing, you know, insurance roofing, storm chasing, the complexity of the CRM that you need is much more than if you're out selling solar or alarm systems or pest control, whatever is being sold door to door. um and My perspective is it's it's better to go with what's there.

24:37

David V. Kimball

Interesting. I want to ask you a bit more about that. So is the storm chasing like let me just speak in a really dumb way for a second. If I were to build my own CRM for your business, it would not only need to have all the tooling of a standard CRM, but it would need to like look at patterns in weather and predict. Like, when there would be bad weather in certain areas and then geolocate those areas and then somehow ping a team to say we need to attack this area in or before or like, is that like,

25:06

Isaac LeBaron

Well, you wouldn't ping a team because when you decide to go work a storm, there's a lot of decision factors that go into there. How many homes are hit? How expensive are hotels? whatever it is. There's a lot more factors than that. And no, the CRM doesn't need to do that. There's apps that just track weather, and there's apps that just track door-to-door sales, and there's apps that just track job site communication, and CRMs that hold paperwork and things like that. So, and that's what most people are doing. A popular one like AccuLinks or JobNimbus, they have a construction... construction, CRM, and then the sales rep interfaces separately on just a door tracking app that typically the sales rep purchases, or some of them are even free now for a door tracking app. And then only one person really needs to pay for weather data, and it's the person making the decision on whether it's viable to go there to go after that storm.

26:13

David V. Kimball

So you've clearly been very thoughtful about your... Your tech stack. Are there areas where, you know, you mentioned, yeah, it's a little bit complex because it does everything. Are there still areas of your business, though, that it technically doesn't touch? Like, is there like little fringe parts that you wish it did? I'm just curious.

26:31

Isaac LeBaron

Yeah, we use other software. There's a software called Hover that will measure siding and roofs and all that sort of thing. And in the software we currently use, you can't purchase a roof drawing. So there's another one, RoofR, R-O-O-F-R, RoofR, that you can send off for drawings. And they've got some competitors popping up now, too. So sometimes it's nice to be able to send off for a drawing. And then Hover, you actually go take the pictures. With the app on your phone and it'll measure sighting windows. And it's it's strangely accurate with like windows you would think have to be hand measured. And there are exceptions where where they do have to be. But it is strangely accurate. So no, there is other software we use CR the for CRMs roof link is our our bread and butter, because it was geared for For insurance roofing, which is the most complex avenue, We do roof coatings. We do, you know, siding windows. Our bread and butter is insurance roofing. And it's the most complex part of what we do by far.

27:50

Dylan Baker

Good to know. Wow. Yeah, we like it's like night and day with like, you know, the business owners and operators that we've been talking to. Some of them are like completely anti-tech, anti-AI, and then some other ones are like fully entrenched in all these different tools. And it's really cool to get to chat about it, honestly.

28:16

Isaac LeBaron

I'll tell you something about the AI and the technology that might be helpful. Cool. So it's a rabbit hole. So the guys that are anti-technology, I don't agree with them. But they're not entirely wrong. It is a rabbit hole. So we do Facebook ads and our guy Norm that works on that, he's brilliant. The way he pieces things together. People see our ads and they're distinctly different. And we use AI to help generate those ads. We do all of that sort of thing, but it's a rabbit hole. There's always something new and there's always something out there and I think that it's a better recipe for success to have balance. If you get caught up in every trend that comes out, you're in trouble because we make money by knocking doors and swinging hammers. No money gets generated if you don't communicate with homeowners and swing hammers. That's how money gets generated. And you have to be able to go back to that. So having an open mind for new things that are coming is smart. Being too easily distracted is not smart. And that really is a lot of, I mean, in my industry, a typical owner is an owner-operator, at least to a certain extent. There's exceptions, though. There's big companies out there, and I don't care to be that big. But an owner-operator is a bank. He's, because you're fronting money to subcontractors, and he's a roofing contractor. And there's a little bit of a law element in there. And he's a sales leader, or at least knows how to communicate. There's a lot of guys that are allergic to the sales world, and they're never going to scale if they are. And so that's what a typical owner is. So technology is vital. There's no way, I mean, I'm sitting in my living room on my farm right now, and guys are installing roofs and knocking doors right now. So, yeah, technology is huge, but I've worked with people that all they do is go to seminars and and check out the newest, latest software and all that sort of thing. And they're in the same place they were 15 years ago.

30:44

Dylan Baker

Yeah, I I think what like David and I see, which which I feel comfortable. Speaking for both of us, a lot of it is fluff and a lot of it's just overengineered tooling that is just a company, you know, takes an idea and like rebrands it and tries to make it seem like it's this, you know, state of the art thing when, like, like you say, at the end of the day, all that matters is, you know, you're closing deals and swinging hammers. So I'm curious to see if like you feel the same way about modern technology and stuff.

31:17

Isaac LeBaron

I do. I do. And the real question you need to ask is, is it creating more quality and more volume? Because quality is longevity and volume is money now. Right. And is it creating more quality and more volume? And I'll say yes. I mean, with RoofLink, when it produces a work order, it has all the notes like the solar fan that's on the roof is getting taken out. And they get that work order. And through the through the day that the sales rep talks to them as the homeowner brings up the solar fan, all of the notes are being put in there. So it's creating more quality and it's certainly creating more volume by the rep being able to everybody is being able to dump. Documents and photos and everything into one spot so that everybody's seeing the account. But there is a lot of rebranding. And when I look at somebody like, like I told you, Roofr has some competitors popping up. The only reason they're doing virtually the same thing that Roofr is doing, and sometimes they're not doing as good of a job of it. But it's substantially cheaper, right? So is the new software cutting costs? And everything, everything is a value proposition. Well, they're cutting costs, but now I have to learn a new software and everybody else has to learn a new software.

32:43

David V. Kimball

Exactly. The factor that's not been spoken about yet is time. So like you mentioned, a really big barrier to adopting a new CRM is you have to teach them how to do it. They have to learn how to do it. And that's time. For you to train them or for someone you hire to train them or their own time to learn how to use it. So how do you measure time in this sort of like cost benefit analysis of is it is it worth staying where you are? Because if you stay where you are for too long, you can't ignore the inefficiencies that emerge over time. And you go, I guess we are losing a lot of time to this outdated practice. It's time to move on. Or conversely, if you spin your wheels on every new thing that comes up, man, we're spending a lot of time going to seminars or learning this new stuff. And then we just have to do it again next month when we adopt the new thing. So how do you find that balance of like? Budgeting and thinking about time is an important factor in your organization.

33:31

Isaac LeBaron

So this might sound a little bit cheesy, but when the customer is comfortable and trusts you, things flow. You don't want to fight the insurance company and the customer. And so everything really comes back to. How quickly can you gain trust with somebody and how smoothly can you move them through the process? So gauging time, there's different metrics. Here's an easy metric. So my stats, I'm the most effective salesperson in the company when I'm in the field. And that's tough to deal with because it's good money doing sales if you're good at it. So if I have a good lead setter, In front of me, knocking doors. The average roof in America is about $20,000. And I'm going to close one of those about every hour and a half. And that's factoring that in an eight hour day, it's about every hour and a half. And that's factoring my time for lunch, my time in between jobs. About every hour and a half, I'm going to close a $20,000 deal. So, what is taking away from that? What's taking away from that is having customers that aren't comfortable. So, if you get in too big of a rush with your customer, it actually ends up taking longer. If you sit and chat all day, it takes longer. If you're dealing with clunky software, agreements that won't send, all that sort of thing, it's taking longer. So, there's a lot of metrics that go into it, but the base metric is If I'm in the field, here's how much I'm generating. You're not earning it. You still got to fight the insurance company. You still got to roof the house. You still got to do all those things. But if I'm in the field, here's how much I'm generating. And is this long term going to add to that process and add to the duplication of that process with other sales reps? Uh... And the same thing with the work crews are we are is what we're putting into this CRM making their life easier. But the base there's a lot of metrics, but the base metric is is here's what if you take that same metric with a sales rep that's producing less than I am. You say, OK, every two hours, every three hours, this average guy is generating a $20,000 gross contract and you start from there.

36:03

David V. Kimball

Fascinating. Almost like the lead measure, lag measure framework comes to mind about here's the lead measure, everything we have direct influence over. And then there's the lag measure, which is the result you actually want, the income, the cash. But then that's that's not always something you can control, depending on the insurance you're working with or whatever ends up happening.

36:22

Isaac LeBaron

Yeah. And it applies in marketing, too. OK, so. You put together a Facebook ad or whatever, wherever you're delivering your ad and how much did you spend on the AI? And and but that's not even that big of a deal, right? That's pretty nominal. And how much you're giving Facebook is actually it's an important metric, but it's pretty nominal. The question is, is how long is it taking us to capture these leads that are coming in? Humans cost the most. Software is cheap. Humans cost the most. And and the humans have to be trained to do that software. So when when we're looking at a Facebook ad or whatever, we're we are looking at how many come in, but it's all conversion. And that's kind of what you were just saying. It's all about conversion. What is it taking time-wise, dollar-wise to convert first? And then second, how happy is the customer that we're converting? Because even if we're paying the customer referral fees, word of mouth is still the cheapest. It's still the cheapest advertising. And it's not just cheaper on the front end. It's cheaper because you usually have you have a higher trust level when you get a lead from someone who who recently or in the past has used your services.

37:43

David V. Kimball

Yeah. Yeah. We're almost at time here. So I want to wrap up here. I'll ask Dylan if he has any last questions for you. But first, is there any third party vendor or partner organization you've worked with recently that you're like, these guys deserve a shout out? Anyone that comes to mind?

38:03

Isaac LeBaron

Um... If I'm going to name drop, they are a little bit pricey, but estimate experts out of Florida, they use Xactimate and Symbility, the softwares that insurance companies use, and their turnaround time, and I mean, they provide the building code and whether it's adopted, and they actually pull the roof drawing. And all that sort of thing. So they perform Really, really well. If I was going to give a shout out to anybody, it would be some of my installed crews and my core group. So actually, the people that I work with directly, my brother Heber and Norm Nielsen, the guys I work with, everybody's a hustler and everybody knows how to put a different hat on for a little bit if that's what it takes to make things flow.

38:59

David V. Kimball

So in the landscape, you have your competitors. You've kind of gone a little bit with your background. What would you say is the main thing that separates you from using somebody else?

39:09

Isaac LeBaron

I would say it goes back to what I've already touched on, and that is the focus on communication. That is the focus on being blunt with customers, but not being high pressure with customers. Uh, and, and then connecting that all the way through. So I've, I've seen companies and worked with companies that have a really good backend office. They know how to fight insurance companies. And I've seen companies that have really good closers. Um, another thing is there, the sunset is coming on this industry. So insurance companies are writing policies. So they're not as conducive to this. And a lot of companies are, um, essentially It's doomsday. They're going to close their doors. And having a construction background, we're already transitioning into the retail space. So the current customer that we deal with, that we sign up and fight their claim, they're not dealing with someone that's trying to finish that claim and close their doors. We have a 10 year, 20 year plan. That you know the insurance industries I don't think it's going to go away entirely but it's getting too difficult for the people that got in because it was easy money and having that long-term plan comes back to we're going to take care of this customer because we intend to be around for a very very long time and And... You have a lot of contractors that care about quality and you have a lot of sales reps that communicate well with customers and they're honest and they want to take care of the customer. You don't always have a great connection between those things. And in my core group, Norm's on the marketing side, but he's no stranger to manual labor. And my brother... Heber, that's the other cornerstone of this company. He came out and was in my cell. I was the sales manager. He did door to door with me. He's done construction his whole life. And so I think with us, there's less of a disconnect between communicating comfortably and effectively with the customer and a focus on high quality work. There's a lot in this industry where the installer says the sales rep makes too much money and the sales rep says the lead setter makes too much money and everybody thinks their job is more valuable. And I think we connect the dots better because we have a few people at the top of our organization that have put a roof on and have knocked doors in 110 degrees with 80% humidity and, so to speak, been in the trenches on both sides. Uh, so I think that overall the connection between not being here for a quick buck and understanding everybody, everybody. I mean, I don't swing a hammer anymore and I don't get it into as much sales as I used to. And I don't do all the admin on the back office and fighting the insurance company. But when. When there's envy from one side of the industry to the other, whether it's because of pay or whether it's because of workload, it's easy because whether it's the customer or the employee, the biggest thing we're managing is personalities.

42:26

Dylan Baker

For sure. Totally get it. I, I, I remember one of the last contractors we spoke to was like, one of the first things he would suggest someone getting into this line of work to do is to hire someone to just like, Hold the hand of the client or the customer throughout the entire process and to keep that communication channel going at all times to make them feel comfortable and trust you throughout the whole process from A to Z. Do you do you agree with that? Like for like the account management side of things?

42:59

Isaac LeBaron

I do. And that's the sales rep's job. And so and but it's hard for the sales rep to do that job if everyone else isn't doing their job. And it's hard for them to do that job if you don't have some real down-to-earth training with the sales reps about over-promising. It was promising. So absolutely, you've got the customer's personality, which is first and foremost, but then you have everybody else's personality. Even the supplier, they don't always deliver the shingles on the roof the way that the installer wants it done. And that's what you're communicating. And this will always require people. And when when you realize that people need to do their job, but they're also people. And I think that, you know, on a side note, that really is communication. One of the mistakes that sales reps make is the customer is not your friend. Now, I've had customers become friends and I don't mean this in a bad way. It's just very it's I think it's it's ingenuine. They are not your friend. You are there to provide a service. And part of that service is comfort. But do [bleep] And your job is to provide them comfort and walk them, hold their hand, as you said, hold their hand through this. That's your job. Stop being unprofessional. If you find a genuine way to build rapport, great. Build rapport. It's not a bad thing. But if you spend all day building rapport, it's disingenuine. And then they don't value your time because you're chatting. It seems fake. It seems fake at that point when you try too hard. It doesn't just seem fake. It is. It is. You're not their friend. You came there to sell them. Now, in insurance roofing, they're going to pay a $1,000 deductible typically and get a $20,000 roof. So it's the greatest value in sale or at least in door-to-door sales, if not in sales in general. But you're there to do a job, act like a professional and do your job. And part of your job is creating comfort. So you're not just going to mechanically explain the process to them, but deliver what you were there to do because we all want to be fishing. And if you're spending three hours with a customer, you're, I mean, hypothetically fishing, whatever it is for you, but we all want to be fishing. And if you're spending three hours with a customer, you're not fishing. And I, even though the customer's enjoying the conversation, unless they're 75 years old and retired, somewhere else they'd rather be too. And I tell them the same thing. Well, they're skeptical. Yeah, good. They should be skeptical. If they're going to get a roof for a thousand dollars, they should be skeptical. You know, sales reps say they're annoyed. Well, yeah, they were, they were watching CSI Miami and you knocked on their door. Of course they're annoyed. You're annoying. Just own it. You're annoying. You knocked on their door. Yeah. And tell them why you're there. And it's not like we don't tell them what company we're with, but stop with the introductions. They don't care. You are rude. You just interrupted them. So tell them why you're there. And get to the point. And then once you've told them why you're there, then you can build a little rapport, then you can make them comfortable and all that sort of thing. But it's rude, right? You interrupt somebody, you should tell them why you interrupted them.

46:10

David V. Kimball

Well, that's a good note, I think, to end on. Thank you so much, Isaac, for your time. If people want to do business with you or, you know, get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

46:21

Isaac LeBaron

So they can go to the website, info at lebaronexteriors.com and the phone numbers are posted there and that really is through the website you have email contacts and phone contact as well.

46:38

David V. Kimball

Great, so lebaronexteriors.com. Thank you so much Isaac and Dylan, it was a pleasure and I'll see you guys on the next episode.

46:45

Isaac LeBaron

Thanks. Thank you guys.

46:46

Dylan Baker

Thanks Isaac.

What came up.

The tools Isaac mentioned on the show. We don't take money from any of them.

RoofLinkThe CRM built for insurance roofing; a little clunky, but the only one that does everything
HoverMeasures siding, windows and roofs from photos taken with the app
RoofrRoof drawings he can send off for
Estimate ExpertsXactimate and Symbility estimates, his shout-out on the show
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